perfect supplement stack? - Philippine Bodybuilding and Fitness Board

van_wilder · Senior Member

perfect supplement stack?

theveed · PBFB Admin

Food... Vitamins... That's all you really need. Just fill the holes with whey.

The rest are good to have but absolutely not necessary. Proven time and again by research and NON-COMMERCIAL sites.

NOx is USELESS... I'll stand by that no matter what. Pumps don't equal gain. You want pump? Do one set of high reps with cable and hold every peak. You'll get the same thing for free.

jayson_expy99 · Member

The most effective for me is Creatine, Protien, amino and multivitamins. Nothing more.

Remember yung HMB, Dibencozide (which is vitamin B12) & Boron na super effective daw, wala din nangyari diba? Kaya gamitin nyo yung mga supplements na tumatagal sa market dahil sila ang totoo.

-- Edited by jayson_expy99 at 02:38, 2004-12-31

IronHeaD · Senior Member

As of now the best stack for mass building & strength cycle is:

creatine

Whey Protien

Tribulius Terrestris

DHEA

Androstenedione

van_wilder · Senior Member

quote:
Originally posted by: IronHeaD
"As of now the best stack for mass building & strength cycle is:

creatine
Whey Protien
Tribulius Terrestris
DHEA
Androstenedione"

tribulius? effective ba talaga?

dhea? ano yun?

andro? hindi maganda yan eh dahil sa side effects

theveed · PBFB Admin

IronHead: Regarding T.T.

tribulus Terrastris has been shown to dialate the coronary arteries (Wang 1990) and has a diuretic effect (Arcasoy 1998).

Saponin (Tribulis) effects: LD50=813 mg/kg in mice, decreased peristalsis of isolated jejunum, no effect on isolated rabbit aorta Arcasoy 1998

Staggers (vague nervous and muscular locomotor disorders) in Australian livestock attributed to tribulus terrestris and other wild plants Bourke 1995

Gliotoxin is toxic to cells of the immune system and has been implicated in aspergillosis and inactivates alcohol dehydrogenase. The related toxin sporidesmin is the causative agent of facial eczema in sheep Waring 1995

STS1 (Sporidesmin Toxicity Suppressor) gene encodes a 1511-residue protein whose predicted structural organization has 12 alpha-helical membrane segments and 2 domains with consensus sites for ATP binding; expression is regulated by pheromones Bissinger 1994

Microscopic examination of plant material from the irrigated pasture which caused photosensitization in lambs disclosed spores of Pithomyces chartarum Hansen 1994

"Hepatogenous photosensitization of sheep in California associated with ingestion of tribulus terrestris (puncture vine) " McDonough 1994

Geeldikkop induced by tribulus steroidal saponins in a sheep, associated with glucuronides of epismilagenin & episarsasapogenin in the bile stones from diosgenin & yamogenin glycosides. Tigogenin, neotigogenin, gitogenin & neogitogenin aren't lithogenic Miles 1994

Bile stones of sheep with geeldikkop induced by tribulus saponins contain beta-D-glucuronides of the steroidal sapogenins epismilagenin & episarsasapogenin Miles 1994

Hepatogenous photosensitization in 40% of sheep grazing tribulus. Postmortem revealed diffuse jaundice, liver discoloration, hyperplasia of small bile ducts, bile stones and diffuse swelling of hepatocytes Tapia 1994

Harmane & norharmane (beta-carboline indoleamines) in tribulus terrestris at 44 mg/kg dry weight Synthetic harmane & norharmane cause nervous effects in sheep similar to staggers Bourke 1992

Injury to the parenchyma and biliary system was more severe in the photosensitized than in the non-photosensitized lambs which were treated with sporidesmin Flaoyen 1992

Necrosis in single centrilobular hepatocytes, accumulated glycogen & parenchymal damage in sporidesmin treated lambs Flaoyen 1991

Outbreaks of photosensitivity and jaundice in sheep grazing the grass, Brachiaria decumbens, is similar to problems with tribulus terrestris and Panicum Graydon 1991

Geeldikkop was induced in sheep by crude steroidal saponins from tribulus terrestris. Symptoms included birefringent crystalloid material in bile ducts and concentric periductal lamellar fibrosis Kellerman 1991

Genetic strain differences in susceptibility to sporidesmin-induced biliary tract injury - injury was greatest in the C57BL/6 & C3H strains and least in SJL/J mice Bhathal 1990

Hepatogenous photosensitization produced by saponin-containing plants including Panicum coloratum, Agave lecheguilla and tribulus terrestris Patamalai 1990

DNA fragmentation characteristic of apoptosis, in vitro, caused by sporidesmin, the immunotoxin gliotoxin & related epipolythiodioxopiperazines Waring 1990

Decreased levels of dopamine (19%) and 3,4-dihydroxyphenylacetic acid (30%) in the striatum of sheep affected by tribulus terrestris staggers Bourke 1987

Panicum coloratum-associated disease is similar to the photosensitization induced by tribulus terrestris, Agave lecheguilla, and Nolina texana Bridges 1987

Histopathology of Panicum caused cholangiohepatopathy and photosensitisation in lambs is similar to Geeldikkop of tribulus Button 1987

Poisoning of sheep and goats by Tribulis terrestris (caltrop) Jacob 1987

Review of staggers in sheep associated with ingestion of tribulus terrestris notes that outbreaks are associated with drought periods Bourke 1984

Geeldikkop in sheep grazing tribulus terrestris, with discolouration of the liver and kidneys Glastonbury 1984

Hepatopathy in sheep associated with tribulus terrestris " (no abstract) Bourke 1983

Photosensitization induced in sheep by Pithomyces chartarum obtained from tribulus terrestris plants collected during an outbreak of geeldikkop Kellerman 1980

Collection of tribulus from a camp in which geeldikkop had just previously broken out Bath 1978

Genetic breakdown of chromosome behaviour of tribulus terrestris " (no abstract) Nagl 1972

Preliminary studies on the diuretic effects of Hygrophila spinosa and tribulus terrestris " (no abstract) Kumari 1967

The hypotensor effects of tribulus cistoides " (no abstract) Leon 1966

Aphrodisiac properties of tribulus terrestris extract (Protodioscin) in normal and castrated rats attributed to its androgen increasing property. Gauthaman 2002

Steroidal saponins extracted from tribulus terrestris evaluated with ESI-MS Fang 1998

New cardioactive steroid saponins and other glycosides from Mexican tribulus cistoides " (no abstract) Achenbach 1996

Saponin C, a beta-glucosidase-treated saponin isolated from ethanol-water extracts of tribulus terrestris, is ruscogenin 1-O-alpha-L-rhamnopyranosyl-(1-->2)-beta-D-6)-acetylglucopyranoside++ + Wilkins 1996

Steroidal saponins, from the aerial parts of tribulus terrestris, were elucidated by NMR Wu 1996

Steroidal saponins (terrestrosins) from fruits of tribulus terrestris were elucidated Yan 1996

Steroid saponins (cardioactive cistocardin, saponin-3, -4 & -7), furostanol diglycoside 5'-(hydroxysulphonyloxy) jasmonic acid, D-(+)-pinitol, 2 N-acyltyramines & sucrose identified in tribulus cistoides aerial parts Achenbach 1994

Crude saponins from tribulus terrestris include diosgenin, yamogenin, epismilagenin, tigogenin, neotigogenin, gitogenin & neogitogenin in the ratio 10:7:1:11:7:35:25 Miles 1994

Harmane & norharmane (beta-carboline indoleamines) in tribulus terrestris at 44 mg/kg dry weight Synthetic harmane & norharmane cause nervous effects in sheep similar to staggers Bourke 1992

Steroid saponines and sapogenines. V. Hecogenin from tribulus terrestris " (German, no abstract) Tomowa 1977

Splitting protodioscin, the main glycoside from tribulus terrestris, by an enzymatic preparation from Aspergillus niger Prepelitsa 1975

Steroid saponines and sapogenins. IV. Saponines from tribulus terrestris " (no abstract) Tomowa 1974

No doubt about it, tribulus is a steroid precurser. It is also highly associated with colon, liver and kidney, as well as bile duct damage.

tribulus is amortized in the liver and stimulates an overproduction of LH, which is an extremely delicate hormone. This throws your endocrine system out of balance (homeostasis). A hormonal imbalance can be incredibly destructive, as you can see from my above post. The reason why I do not have a problem with ZMA is because it is so low grade, you need to take upwards of 30-40 grams a day to see a statistically significant effect on GH levels in vivo, as opposed to tribulus, which delivers a rather sizeable effect with minimal dosages. ZMA is so low grade, it isn’t even considered a prohormone.

Whether or not you agree that tribulus is a prohormone, this is still a moot point, because the studies I listed above should be more than convincing about the inherent dangers of this product.

IronHeaD · Senior Member

Side effects caused by the Tribulus? But does the report said how much mg. did they took before they have those problems, how long did they use it?

This is the same with the topics in steroids, they always said that you'll have this, that.....those.......here,........there and what now? I've been using Sustanon250 and Deca Durabolin with Dbol, Proviron Clenbuterol and other illegal stuffs.

But I assure that I have my blood checked every month and I always take ancillary drugs during and after my heavy cycle in roids. Gee, Im old now but im still alive. All products, suppliments and drugs should be taken correctly, as for me steroids, suppliment, nutrition & diet are friends.

But thanks theveed for your concern.

as you said:

"Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance."

Thanks a lot man!

van_wilder · Senior Member

nakakatakot naman yan... pure whey na lang talaga ako...

theveed · PBFB Admin

quote:
Originally posted by: IronHeaD
"Side effects caused by the Tribulus? But does the report said how much mg. did they took before they have those problems, how long did they use it?
This is the same with the topics in steroids, they always said that you'll have this, that.....those.......here,........there and what now? I've been using Sustanon250 and Deca Durabolin with Dbol, Proviron Clenbuterol and other illegal stuffs.
But I assure that I have my blood checked every month and I always take ancillary drugs during and after my heavy cycle in roids. Gee, Im old now but im still alive. All products, suppliments and drugs should be taken correctly, as for me steroids, suppliment, nutrition & diet are friends.
But thanks theveed for your concern.
as you said:
"Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance."
Thanks a lot man!"

I'm not saying Trib isn't effective bud, I just posted researches done by supplement watchers and that's the report. I wish I have their degrees and expertise hehe. But I don't.

Like what you said, a lot of direct enhancing supplements, or even anabolics and steroids may not give hazardous side effects if used strictly and correctly, but I'm sure you'd agree, as you posted a scenario in your poll in OT section, that most users abuse drugs and supplementation. I'd say that for every 1 disciplined user of any anabolic, you'll find 10-20 that are abusing it to a certain degree, hence the apprehension and the importance of knowing the "cons" of any product, not just the "pro" side of it.

Most users of this forum (myself included) have never touched anabolics or steroids, and it's important that inputs from more experienced members like yourself to educate us in this aspect in an unbiased manner so members (if they do decide to take that route) will be more educated and prepared to make their supplementation a positive experience instead of a life-threatening one.

:)

-- Edited by theveed at 14:50, 2005-02-07

jadrobe · Veteran Member

i have the ff supps:

ON whey 5 lbs
EAS Phospagen
Cell Tech 4.3 lbs

I only take cell tech when i workout regularly in a week - that is 3x a week, MWF.

I take ON whey post workout - 2 scoops, then eat dinner, then 1 scoop before sleeping

for EAS, i take it in the morning for the maintainance phase.

should i take it post workout first before ON? ayoko kasi uminom ng creatine sa gabi, ang hirap sa madaling araw 3-4x ako tumatayo para mag-CR. kainis!

what do you think?

theveed · PBFB Admin

Celltech is crap, but since you have it already, take it POW. Phospagen is redundant if you have celltech. I'd finish Phospagen first POW I were you.

Not a good combo choice for creatine supps. Redundant ang Celltech and EAS mo. Next time, stick to regular creatine monohydrate.

Your choice to take ON will depend on which meal doesn't have enough protein per serving.

jadrobe · Veteran Member

Uy! veteran member na ko! haha

anyway, yah, i know cell tech is pure hype...pero bigay lang naman sakin yun eh...edi bonus na lang din diba...hehehe

ako rin kasi hindi ako conscious sa calorie intake ko kaya siguro hindi ako ganon ka-bilis lumaki...ang hirap naman kasi kumain dito sa bahay...madalas walang pagkain...ang hirap at ang mahal naman mag-rely sa supplements kaya dinadaan ko na lang sa POW yung protein and shempre, i eat tuna every morning plus eggs.

so hmm...you mean, as post workout, creatine muna and then 30-45 mins after whey na?

kingkaboodles · Senior Member

i think what theveed was referring to is celltech already has creatine. and that he (again, i think) recommends you use up your current supply of phospagen first.

afaik, maganda creatine monohydrate as your pambara and a Protein Shake as your panulak. if you have them both in one drink, ok din.

jadrobe · Veteran Member

what's afaik???? is it, As Far As I Know?

ah so pwde pala pagsabayin...sabi kasi ni mr. van wilder d daw effective pag sabay kasi mas mauuna daw absorb yung whey kesa sa creatine eh ang philosophy daw kaya dapat mauna crea para nutrient retention so pag pasok ng whey, matagal daw sa katawan kahit gaano kabilis absorb...is this correct philosophy?

hair_fluff · Member

Right now i'm on a pretty basic stack:

1. ON 100% Whey
2. EAS powdered creatine
3. Glutamine
4. Multivitamin
5. Vit C and E

thinking of ZMAs or something else that'll boost test? Any suggestions other than roids?